I interviewed internet writer bro Steve Roggenbuck about his chapbook i am like october when i am dead and his writing in general. It was a success?
MARSHALL: In your essay on your blog about submitting to literary journals, you said your “primary goal with publishing is to share [your] writing with other people.” In your essay on publishing in the public domain, you said your “main goal is to make things [you] like and share them with other people.” Is there a “more primary” goal you have which “writing things you like and sharing them” achieves? Or, is doing this the goal itself?
STEVE: i have related values, but i don’t know what is most primary. one thing is trying to being honest with myself and others. i usually try to do what i really believe in or what i really like, not just reverting to what other people do. i think this kind of honest effort is why i feel a need to “be vegan,” for example, instead of just criticizing human supremacy without actually changing my life. if i think something is mean/wrong, i try to live my values about it. so in my writing, i try to do what i actually like, instead of following “shoulds” or standards
another related value might be appreciating people and experiences rather than achievement. one thing i like about being with friends is that each person has their own way. everyone is influenced by culture and other people, but each person has their own style or combination of styles, which shows up in their humor, voice, movements, and other things like dress and taste in art. i like seeing what each person would create (in writing/art, but also “everyday life”) given the freedom to do whatever they want. that is mostly why i am interested in reading and sharing literature, i think
i would maybe define this as opposite to the utilitarian outlook that something should be valued only for its utility. my favorite things about people are their particular characteristics that probably don’t affect “suffering” or “happiness.” i like that people can like different things and share what they like, and relate to what other people like
MARSHALL: It seems that the poems in your chapbook are at least partly “autobiographical.” I also read on your blog that some of the “material” for your uppercase poem series comes from your old MSN Messenger chat logs. Is this “autobiographical” element related to your desire to “[be] honest with myself and others”?
STEVE: i think about 6 of the poems are autobiographical and 9 are not, although some poems could maybe be either because they just express a feeling or relationship between things, like “i am like october when i am dead.” i don’t think my autobiographical content is directly connected to being honest. i think you can communicate something honest by using metaphor, voice, and events that never happened to you. for me, as long as i’m doing what i really want to do, and not letting myself really be side-tracked by other limitations or incentives, that is honest
MARSHALL: I guess you like sharing your writing with people. Do you worry about things like “accessibility”? I guess these poems (and also the uppercase poems) are pretty “brief.” Is this “brevity” possibly related? Also, do have any “ideal experience” that you would like a reader to have? Or, an “ideal way” of “interacting” with the poem? Do you have a “message”/”feeling” when writing that you would like the reader to “get”?
STEVE: i don’t worry about accessibility in the way that ted kooser and billy collins talk about accessibility or anything, like writing poetry that mainstream america “understands.” but i think my writing style(s) is potentially “accessible” to a bigger audience than most poets’ writing style(s). what i try to do is make poems/art that are exciting to me, with the idea that there are others who have similar taste
i think brevity allows the poems to focus on one thing and make it clear what i am trying to do, so it affects accessibility a little. if some of the “funny” lines in my chapbook were put into 50-line poems with other stuff happening, a reader might not notice them as funny anymore. a lot of my humor is based on paying close attention to tone. putting only one sentence in a poem encourages people to look closer at the sentence and the tone, not just the “meaning”
i think there are certain attitudes that will help a reader enjoy my writing in the ways i intended, although i am ok with other ways people read it. the humor in my poems is often subtly laughing at/about people being presented seriously. the voices in the chapbook—“god help me im throwing my neighbor off a building,” “i will choke your dad”—are funny to me because of their intensity. in my msn-based poems, i’m often subtly laughing at/about cultural references that seem slightly out-dated, like myspace, or somewhat “entry-level,” like atreyu or pedro the lion. some of these cultural references i even like, but it’s laughing at people presenting themselves seriously
there are a range of reactions to my poetry that i really appreciate. i like when people laugh at my readings. i like when people like things and they don’t know why they like them. i like when people acknowledge that they like the visual design of a poem. i sometimes like when people are confused, but i hope they are able to eventually “get” that there is nothing to “get” in any intellectual sense (i hope people don’t feel excluded from “the joke”)
MARSHALL: Your “bio” on Twitter says simply “vegan poet.” In your “bios” on your blog and in your chapbook, you also identify yourself as a vegan. Do you think your status as a vegan “relates” to your status as a writer? Do you think it is more “relevant” than other characteristics, such as “from rural Michigan,” “male,” etc.? Is your writing “informed” in any way by your “vegan-ness”? Do you have any other reasons for identifying yourself as a vegan publicly?
STEVE: for me, my writing and my understanding of veganism are related. i will write a blog post about this sometime soon, and i’m also starting a video project where i interview other vegan artists about this, sometime. but i recognize that “vegan poet” might mean basically nothing, or something different, to most people
for me veganism is a set of beliefs or a worldview just as much as a set of practices (diet/consumption). it is the worldview that leads me to question the domination of the weak by the strong (the human domination of other animals, but also powerful humans dominating less powerful humans). so veganism interacts with my writing as a set of ideas, in the same way that zen ideas have interacted with my writing
i think questioning power relations and established standards is something in veganism and in my writing. in my writing, i do what i am interested in. if something about the usual way of writing or publishing bothers me, i will find a different way to write or publish. to me, this seems like a similar impulse as the person who dislikes the normal way of treating other animals, or the normal way of being a “consumer,” so they commit to a different way
you don’t have to be a “vegan” to question like this… i’m kind of describing the “avant-garde” in general. but for me, the questioning in my art and in the rest of my life (veganism, activism) developed together. (i read the dada manifestoes the same month i ‘went vegan.’) so i mean “vegan poet” in a broad way, like a lot of “feminist art” is called feminist for questioning hierarchy in general
i also publicly identify myself as a vegan because i want people to consider veganism in general and, if they have questions, ask me about it. i have thought and read a lot about veganism, and i really believe in its value to make a lot individuals’ lives better, especially if it is considered as an idea and a deep/sincere effort, not just a diet
MARSHALL: You used to (and maybe still do?) play drums in metal bands. Have music or songs influenced the way you write or the kinds of things you write? Have you ever written words for songs or do you intend to so in the future? Would you consider your poetry “metal” in any sense?
STEVE: i’ve written lyrics for songs a couple of times, but i didn’t like them a lot. in a broad way i think my poetry shares some characteristics with metal music. in an old blog post, i wrote about listening to slipknot in high school and being a nonconformist. then when i got into poetry, i read e.e. cummings, and he had the same general message of being different from “mostpeople.” whether or not i ever write “about” being a “nonconformist,” i think my writing styles enact some questioning (like i wrote above about veganism). metal is a counterculture that rejects a lot of mainstream culture and values. my writing also rejects a lot of mainstream culture and values, at least in the writing style, and sometimes in the content
MARSHALL: In the commentary video you made for your chapbook, you explain that many of the poems are parts of longer poems, or shortened versions of longer poems. Was “brevity” one of your goals when putting together this chapbook? Are these shortened/”fragmented” versions “distillations” of the longer/”full” versions? Or, are they “essentially different,” or something? What is their relationship, as you see it?
STEVE: one thing is that i started to dislike synthesis being used to communicate a message. there was a longer poem called “poem beginning with a line by ts eliot who was alluding to king lear i am pretty sure” (blazevox spring 2010), which i eventually divided into 3 chapbook poems and deleted some other parts. in its longer form, it used a lot of emotional experiences to create a general “emotional vibe.” but i didn’t like how the individual experiences seemed to be exploited by that form to create a vibe. i wanted to isolate each experience and just have each one be its own thing. i didn’t want my grandma’s funeral to be used to bolster political arguments or some different emotional feeling. i wanted each experience to just be that experience
another thing was explained in the commentary video… i wanted the humor to be more subtle. the “oh, you have a smock on” poem is an example of this because it used to have a sort of “punchline” feeling to it, but now it’s just an observation, and that’s it. i am interested in voice-based humor where i’m not sure exactly what i am laughing about/at
a third reason is that after reading the same poems for about a year (most of them were drafted in 2009), i kept getting tired of various lines. i removed a lot of “okay” stuff and only kept what i really liked consistently for a long time. it’s maybe similar to how when i was in a band, we decided that we’d rather be a band with a high-quality 15-minute set rather than a 1-hour mediocre set. since writing my chapbook, i have been doing other short poems, but i’ve also written some longer poems. i now feel able to write some longer things without having the same problems of synthesis as much
MARSHALL: You chose to use a sentence for the title of your chapbook that also appears in the chapbook. It seems like this is a common “strategy” for titling things: using a “piece” of the “whole” to signify the “whole” (which is “synecdoche,” I think). What was your “strategy” regarding your choice of title? Does the title “sum up” chapbook for you, in some sense? Is it doing something else?
STEVE: choosing that title brings out certain characteristics of the chapbook… i considered a lot of other titles like “god help me im throwing my neighbor off a building” or “good fucking lord we enjoy the wheat season in michigan,” but i like that “october” allows for “serious” overtones as well. so it’s not “just a joke,” even if it is a funny chapbook
like i mentioned in the commentary video, i like the donnie darko feeling i get from the poem with the “october” line in it. i feel like i identify with that “dark” aesthetic/vibe. i am watching the music video for “funeral thirst” by “the black dahlia murder” now. i kind of like how the drummer is wearing a hooded sweatshirt and they are playing music in a graveyard
MARSHALL: Are there any writers or other people/things that you consciously “copied”/”emulated” when putting together this chapbook?
STEVE: while writing and revising, i didn’t consciously copy anyone. i just reacted to what i liked or disliked about each poem. after, i sometimes noticed where my idea or style was coming from. i was highly influenced by walt whitman and ron silliman when i wrote a lot of these drafts. i was highly influenced by tao lin and k. silem mohammad for the last eight months of revising them. my tone/aesthetic was influenced by donnie darko, and the subtlety and brevity was influenced by zen practice, my friend chris miller’s ideas about difficulty, and bell hooks
MARSHALL: It seems that many of the poems have to do with “finality.” It seems that many of the poems have to do with “ending” or “leaving” or “dying” or “absence” or things done that are “irreversible.” These lines make me think of those things: “god help me im throwing my neighbor off a building,” “now they are way gone,” “you are gone,” “thats it / thats all / the poem is done, get out,” “i am like the killers of people,” “it is way over, my dad said,” “i burn my car on purpose[.]” I guess some parts of the poems are also more “open” and like the “opposite” of what I just said. Do you want to say anything about this?
STEVE: i haven’t thought about the poems in that way. i think a lot of those lines are a result of the extreme/intense speaker in many of the poems. i guess it fits thematically with october and being dead. i may have aesthetically been drawn to that kind of imagery/language because of the influence of donnie darko and “dark” things in general, but i’m not sure
MARSHALL: You mentioned three months in the chapbook: February, October, and January. “October” is in the title. The chapbook was published in October. In the “deleted scenes,” you mentioned July, December, June, as well as New Year’s Eve (which is sort of the “liminal space” between two months, between two years). Was this on purpose, or something? Do these things have some “significance” to you?
STEVE: stating the time of year in a poem was something i did after reading a lot of haiku in 2009. traditional haiku always says something indicating the season. i like seasons, and i have a lot of emotions based on them. the beginning of fall and the beginning of spring make me feel happy and nostalgic for past falls and springs. when i think of summers, i feel a specific way, and a little bit for winters as well. aside from that, in the title “october” feels kind of “dark” to me (due to dying plants and halloween), which i like. in the last poem “january” feels symbolic for a “beginning,” possibly a “new beginning,” which works well with the final line, but i don’t care a lot about it. i think i mostly like putting the time of year in poems. i like descriptions in novels like, “it was sunny and there was a cool wind,” usually more than dialogue or the character’s thoughts. it reminds me of those kinds of basic experiences, and i feel nostalgic and appreciative about my life
MARSHALL: The last line of your chapbook is “i greet myself at the beginning of a great career[.]” In your commentary video, you explain that this is a reference to Emerson saying to Walt Whitman in a letter “I greet you at the beginning of a great career.” Your line seems kind of “sarcastic” to me. What do you think about “writing careers” (or “careers” in any other kind of art)? What are your “long-term goals” regarding writing? Would you “predict” for me what the next 50 years of your life might look like?
STEVE: ah, the line is a joke to me because it is really arrogant, but i don’t mean any serious comment about writing careers. i actually want to do something that affects a lot of people. i think i especially want to move culture. i want to affect what the world is like in 20-50 years. a lot of my writing/life goals have to do with inspiring/affecting other people. so i have never really wanted to “succeed” just to succeed in an abstract way, or not even primarily for money, but i want to inspire other people
also, i am disappointed by how poorly other people have done with power. people with really unhealthy values or bad motivations seem to be in charge of most media and culture. even “flagship” brands for indie/hipster countercultures seem pretty shitty with labor practices or other ethical issues. i would like to demonstrate, broadly through an aesthetic and an artistic project, a way for people to live healthily for themselves and others
toward this end, i will probably create and release artistic (and activist) projects every year of my life. i will probably seek continually larger audiences for myself and other culture i believe in (other writers, but also anti-oppression activists and zen speakers). i will use guerilla distribution, social media, and various kinds of publishing toward this goal. i will try to create some income through some part of my project so i can focus my work hours on this project, rather than a different job (i am reopening my etsy store this week, which may provide income eventually)
you and i have discussed in emails the idea of accepting being “unsuccessful” or something, and i’ve thought of limiting myself from chasing “my dreams” because i should accept whatever life i have. but i think for me the ideal is to accept my life, but still try to do my best at things that i think are good for myself and others. although being obsessed with audience or “success” may be unhealthy for me, i don’t think the “answer” to those concerns is to strictly limit my involvement. i want to try to limit my mental attachment to success, but i want to keep working hard to spread culture that i believe in
MARSHALL: I guess you are from “rural Michigan”? (Is that accurate?) Do you feel anything about this? Do you feel any sense of “provinicality,” or something, due to being from a “rural area” and/or being from the Midwest? Do you feel any “affinity” or sense of “belonging” with regard to any places or particular “subcultures,” or anything?
STEVE: “rural michigan” is accurate… the main effect i have noticed is that i have always been a little behind with culture, growing up. i associate rural michigan with listening to a band like norma jean and being the only person i know who likes to them, or feeling unique for wearing plaid shirts and skinny jeans, or thinking i am the most progressive person for celebrating “earth hour.” in those rural areas, it seems rare and difficult to “develop” “beyond” “entry-level” alt culture, even with the internet
the bigger result for me is that i feel nostalgic and happy about “entry-level” alt culture, actually. i think a 16 year old listening to slipknot or metallica is beautiful… i think a 19-year old repeatedly listening to “kids” by mgmt in 2010 is wonderful. i think it is lovable to be “behind” things like irony and what is hip or new. with my msn-based poems, i laugh at a lot of the cultural references or the cliche language, but i also feel a love and adoration for those people and experiences
